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Re: Getting to the end of something.
Thanks for clarifying, I fully understand what you mean now. I think it's a by product of scrapping the first idea I had, to move the focus to a new main character but ultimately that would have been just as disjointed when I'd already began the story with Edward. I should have followed your advice at the outset to solidify Edward considering that is what I'm resolved to do now, in pretty much exactly the way you suggested. It would have been a mistake either way to leave him a cardboard cut-out and I can recognise how his place in the story as it is, undermines everything else that follows.
Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:33 pm
Saigyo
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
So, I would wait until your story is at a more advanced stage of completion before spending too much time worrying about the occasional linguistic infelicities in your first draft as it currently stands. Ther are more important things to worry about right now. We haven't even mentioned the problem of theme, which is crucial for a really successful story.
When I say theme, I mean, what is your story about or what are you trying to say through it? What separates a top-notch writer, such as Edgar Allan Poe or H. P. Lovecraft, apart from his peers is that whereas his peers focus exclusively on creating interesting plots and care nothing for theme. Their stories aren't about anything. They often write stories that are fun and entertaining and forgotten as soon as read. By contrast, Poe and Lovecraft used interesting plots to say something about human existence. The mediocre writer of horror stories writes stories in which death, alienation, and evil abound, and yet the stories don't make death, alienation, and evil thematic in the way that Poe and Lovecraft do. To apply the principle to another genre, the mediocre romance novelist writes stories in which passion abounds, but they never make passion thematic in the way that Emily Bronte does in Wuthering Heights.
So, the question to begin asking yourself at this point is: what is my story about?
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:42 pm
Reanimator
Miskatonic University
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
I had to consider the question carefully because I was, I'm afraid to admit, a little stumped at first. I read about Edgar Allen Poe and he wrote an essay on the philosophy of composition and he said that one should first consider the very end, the effect that you want to leave the reader with and after that decide all the other points. I seem to have gotten it backwards to Poe's method but nevertheless I've given it some thought and the only idea that struck me was the theme of the perils of turning your back to something and letting events resolve themselves as they will. Which so far has been displayed with Arthur, who disqueitedly obeys in a circumstance he abhors, to a lesser extent with Edward who has been unable to effect events as of yet and I thought it might harken back to fleshing him out if, by acting when he might have been better served keeping still he had felt the ill-effects of unwanted heroism. Also, the towns people of West Craven display this too, in neglecting to stand fast against the terror that threatens at their doorways, instead shutting themselves inside and wishing for the morning.
Altruism versus the courage to uphold your principles despite the backlash you may face. I'm not sure if that's suitable but that's the thing that occured to me.
Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:33 pm
Saigyo
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
You could certainly develop that sort of theme in your story, Reanimator, but it can't be the central theme of your story because there's nothing particularly horrifying about it. When Lovecraft writes a story about the Elder Gods, his theme is the ontological primacy of absolute savagery as well as humanity's yearning for a return from the repressed condition of civilized, modern, and urban man, to the freedom of the absolutely primitive. Put differently, Lovecraft had a very distinct vision of human life as essentially horrific and so, in spite of the fact that he wrote about fictitious events and gods, his stories are powerful because he is always really writing about real human life and he is dead serious about the real universe being fundamentally demonic in character. So too is Poe.
So another question for you to answer is: what is my horrific vision of life?
It's interesting that you mentioned Poe's stressing of the priority of effect in the design of a piece of fiction. Even though I don't think it's necessary to have an explicit knowledge of what sort of effect you're trying to create at the start of writing a story, I think as you make your way through the revision process that comes after producing your first draft it's important to start focusing in on effect, seeing where you've instinctually hit the right note and so created the right effect and where you've missed the mark.
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Midnightlight
Hikiculturite's Best Friend - Voted Sexiest Man on Hikiculture
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
Man, Saigyo, if you can tutor so well to someone on writing, I'll have to be sure to post something of my own when I get the chance.
_________________
I do that Song Of The I never change thing too! Konami Kukeiha Club - One Night In Neo Kobe City (From Snatcher)
If I'm gone for a week, don't fret HikiCulture. If I'm gone for a month, it's no big deal. If six months pass by, something is up. If I'm gone for a year, assume that I am dead.
Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Saigyo
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
If you post something you've written, Midnightlight, I'll be more than happy to let you know where your writing's strengths and weaknesses lie.
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:11 pm
Reanimator
Miskatonic University
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
Just a short paragraph I came up with to give Edward purpose. I think it'll tie into the theme I'll develope more fully in the close too. This takes place whilst Edward is alone in the guest room before he closes his eyes.
Quote:
Whilst futilely studying the outer void his thoughts turned to other concerns which had been like spiteful fey eunuchs, prodding at him with an incessantness, at whose insistence he could not wait to begin the journey he was now about. His sister more than ever before had need to depend on him and for that reason he was now travelling northwards. He had received intelligence, a missive from his estranged mother, that she, his sister, was in dire condition. The lexeme she had reprised throughout the letter, the unremitting theme that had imprinted itself on his psyche and which he saw whenever he took a moment to close his eyes were the words; “Do not wait,” and, ”she fails fast.” He would be there to comfort her and allow her spirit no regrets as it passed on to the greater unknown. He would not say it, but by the way he would look into her eyes she would come to understand that he meant to see her again when his accounts had also been tallied. It agonized him that he would have to rest for the night and not continue, as he had planned, to walk as far as he could manage until a better mode of transport became available and he had to placate himself with the reason that he would not lose much time if, as early as possible, he found motorised transport.
It took me days to come up with something that didn't sound absurd. I literally wrote three different back stories for him. -.- I'm much happier with this one though. I realise it doesn't leave much room for comments so I'll carry on with getting to meatier things.
Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:42 pm
Saigyo
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
Wow. That paragraph alone makes him a thousand times more vivid and compelling. All of the characterization and backstory fits perfectly with this kind of story. I thought the fact that you made his sister's condition vague and mysterious -and at the same time critical -- was a great touch. One thing that can't be overemphasized when it comes to the wierd tale is that mystery is essential to achieving the traditional Lovecraft/Poe kind of effect: in the Lovecraft/Poe kind of story, mystery is triangulated with terror and beauty to create an experience of a distinctly romantic kind of horror. Also, there's a bit more confidence in the prose than in what you've posted before. Looks like your story is cooking up quite nicely, Reanimator! がんばれ!!
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:45 pm
Reanimator
Miskatonic University
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
Thanks for wishing me luck Saigyo, I don't half need it.
For the length of time since I last posted this is a pitiful amount of text and I can't believe I haven't finished yet. I'm sorry but it ends pretty abruptly but I wanted to paste it here because I know if I do I won't do as I've done for the passed two weeks, which is reconsider it all and delete it.
I'm a little worried because I only have 600 words left before I break the 7,500 word short story classification. (I think that's right at least) I guess that would limit the places I could submit it to afterwards. Assuming I haven't broken it by the end.
I've actually written the last paragraph and I might add it in spoiler at the tail to see what you think.
Quote:
He had drifted in out of cognisance but now Edward felt something of himself return (and another part of him be left behind). The first thing he recognised was the crisp odour of the unconstrained climate out of doors and he wondered that he should be anywhere but in the guest room at the Grange Fell. It had been like the briefest pause since he had momentarily reposed on the bed yet, there was at the same time an undeniable sense of having taken part in dreams vast, containing momentous corridors of psychology. Had there been another with him? It was an unreasonable thought and perhaps on other nights, when the essence of the nether didn't seem to linger upon the glades, he should have felt it the merest nothing to discard it out of hand. Alas he could not shake it and what was more felt that he had been governed like any bit of loose string, fondled and toyed with and knew not how he had managed to break free. There was one facet of this lingering confusion which troubled him with the greatest ardency; In the deep, deep darkness into which he had been thoughtlessly cast he felt that he had peeked into a slip of knowledge which no human mind should have to bear. A fissure in the real which let him see into the after and there, with widened eyes, he had caught sight of the sort of secret which upon hearing you would give anything to return. Edward suppressed the recollection, he was not ready to face it again yet. It was too much, and even in denial it fingered him with taloned hands and made him muse whether he could, with loving familiarity, hold eye contact with his sister as she peered through him and on to the abyss.
From the dim precipices of the ebon monolith, Arthur lurked, nay rather he cowed and wondered at which signal he would venture forth his challenge to the crone. He watched her as she clutched at her breast, unheeding those about her and giving her whole to the racking jubilance of anticipation. He thought she had about her the rancid stench of unholy rites and were it not for the palsied fright which had petrified him and kept him still, lest he draw her attention, he would have denounced it most verily. ‘Abomination!’ Arthur thought and it seemed to seep from every pore of earth and stone in the vicinity and crowded round with an awful closeness, yet despite his misgivings and the veracity he felt to try and defer the will of the hag thereby, he remained thoroughly paralysed. Would he just watch? Arthur wasn’t even sure anymore, he couldn’t possibly, he thought, and it was an unparalleled disconcert that perhaps he might and what stopped him from acting now before the blood offering began? Natheless the brash winds chilled his nerve and filled his head with winsome enchantments that commended him for his staying put and he dozed and watched and did not trouble himself to act.
Edward tried to lift himself from the prostrate position he had assumed, but he was experiencing a dismaying apoplexy which left his limbs ignorant of his will to move them and he trapped inside no better than a cadaver. The doping was potent and still infiltrated his veins and Millen would have been so very gleeful had she known the sublime torment she had caused Edward to inculcate him with unheeding ligaments. Though it was instead that she watched with certain pangs of disappointment, rightly judging her trickery had gone awry and may not after all cause Demdike the trouble she had hoped. Giving way to his own helplessness Edward instead looked around for where assistance might perchance recommend itself and to gather what he could of the place he had, by unknowing translocation, arrived at. His sight alighted upon the bent statue of the withered heretic and he might have immediately called out to her had he not been struck with a muddy sense that there was jade wrongness to her. She looked at him with all the enthrallment of a youthful lover, hot and steady as the sphinx and it deeply unsettled Edward, who also noted how she idly groped at some object underneath her vest. But there was no avoiding beseeching her in lieu of the stupor that his life’s anchor had undergone and he set aside the perturbations he felt and asked her,
“I’m sorry, can you help me? I don’t know what’s happened or how I came to be here but I can’t move. If you have a phone could you please ring the ambulance?” And he noted the flicker of astonishment that passed over her creased countenance but which, as suddenly as it appeared, vanished and became replaced instead by a narrowing of her eyes which made her seem a thorough shrew.
“How is it you can talk? Can’t you move? What’s the matter?” She almost barked the questions in her consternation and it was sadly unfortunate for Edward that he mistook her fluster for concern.
“I don’t know, only that my head is swimming and I can’t make any motion to stand. All I can think of is that perhaps I damaged my spine whilst sleepwalking which makes not the slightest bit of sense as I’ve never walked whilst sleeping before. Please can you help me?”
Upon hearing this intelligence her dry confidence returned and she viewed him once more as a simple commodity that she had procured for their amusing. He too suspected that there was a sense of discontinuity between her actions, her response and now the return of her lusty gaze and wondered if she did not mean to assist him at all; if, in fact, it wasn’t at her directing he had been brought to this current predicament. It would not be long until he garnered the unpleasant truth of his speculations and come to reckon upon the err he had committed in revealing to her his haplessness. She approached him with soft steps, disregarding all further of his attempts to inspire her pity, and brought the knife with which she had come prepared for the disembowelling from without of her garments. Allowing him full view as she brandished it with the ire of heresy and he might have found the scene incomprehensible were it not for the signals he had already divined for himself. He watched her with the absolute numbing shock that the calf feels as its hind quarters are torn by the claw and tooth of ravenous man eaters and which causes it to abandon all further struggles, or hope for anything but a swift end; yet he could not dismiss the image of his sister, bereft at her deathbed. Demdike knelt beside him and though he talked now in pleas remained entirely insensible to his words, only eying the fleshy aperture she had revealed by lifting his shirt, the soft abdomen which had no benefit of shielding bone.
“E-enough!” It was Arthur who had faintly stammered this interruption, but the guile of it from one whom should be entirely defeated gave Demdike enough pause to aver her attention. “I somehow thought that thur might be somethin’ decent left in yah but as I watched from ‘ere an’ saw ‘ow yah looked set for butchery I can’t believe I could be so soft. Aye, stupid for not thinking thee the foulest… (though I still can’t whilst yah kneel above the lad that I was part in sendin’.)”
She immediately saw the pistol which he held and that weaved unsteadily in his nervous grip and perceived the turmoil that still raged inside him, the as yet unresolved question of whether he could stand fast by his resolution. “Have you come too Art to bathe in the cesspit?”
“To put an end to you more like, an’ teck that of misself back which I surrendered in ever lettin’ a mongrel dog like yahself ‘ave ‘er way.” Though the words he spoke were strong, the delivery was revealing in how it quavered.
“Oh, come now! Surrendered? Hardly! What is it… is this the fear of the grave in you? Yellow swine! Do not think to make amends with trifling appeasements. Believe when I say that your remorse is utterly pointless. If you had seen the secret vestiges that I have been shown, that cannot even be writ in forgotten places, you would not involve yourself with pointless dalliances.”
He would go to the hall of the things that were and it was not a hall at all, nor any type of place and there would be no reuniting and he could not bid farewell to his dear sister Sophie, as there could be no words nor thoughts and there could not even be nothing, suggestive as that is of the absence of something. It is the undoing, the never having done and it will not suffer to be eluded. Into despair Edward descended, for he knew that it could not be escaped and he and his sister and all others would eventually gather there and they would not even know it.
The End.
Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:09 pm
Saigyo
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
I'm glad that you posted what you've written rather than just deleting it, Reanimator, since by simply deleting what you write your leaving yourself with nothing to work with. It's much easier to rework a half-baked piece of writing than it is to simply return again and again to the frustration of a completely blank page. Just because what you're coming up with is incohate and has multiple infelicities at the stylistic and structural levels doesn't mean that what you're writing should just be chucked.
Based on what you've posted, it looks like you've overcome your first problem, which was at the level of structure. You now have a strong cast of characters and a viable plot. You've also tapped into the primal theme of nineteenth-century horror, namely the horror that comes when human beings seek to truly know the Real. So you've managed to overcome your first major stumbling-block.
Now, something that's probably discouraging you about your story is the fact that although you've now got a solid plot and more vividly realized characters there's something rather generic about it all. (I'll continue in a new post since I can't see a word that I'm writing.)
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
Uhm, personally, I'm very bad at finishing. Usually if I disappear from it for a day or two and go out and write something else, or simply lay around lazing about to come back with a different mentality it helps. Or, if that doesn't work, to think about the ideas and how to make things flow to each other. Eventually I think so hard they become dreams and then it is not hard to write.
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
I mean, the story as it stands is really an imitation of another writer (Lovecraft) and it's quite predictable to the reader how things are going to unfold. Now, the problem here is not that of imitation per se -- imitation is an essential part of storytelling. Rather, the problem is that the imitation is slavish.
When Dostoevsky started out as a writer, his greatest influence was the great comic writer Nikolai Gogol who wrote short stories featuring grotesque, bizarre, and psychologically disturbed characters involved in often fantastical situations. On the one hand he imitated Gogol in many ways: his books and stories are filled with the same sort of characters that populate Gogol's stories, but unlike Gogol, his characters are much more psychologically complex and whereas Gogol's stories are purely comic and ridiculous, Dostoevsky's are constantly shifting from the ridiculous and comic to the serious and tragic in a way that is profoundly compelling and also profoundly disturbing. So, while he never stops imitating Gogol even in his last and greatest novel, The Brothers Karamazov, he was from the very beginning concerned with pushing the Gogolian formula in new directions.
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:21 am
Saigyo
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
So Dostoevsky left behind a bunch of writing in which he played with the Gogolian formula. And then along came Franz Kafka, who spent his youth reading Dostoevsky and Gogol obsessively and whose writing is clearly imitative of both Dostoevsky and Gogol, and yet he too was concerned with pushing the formula in new directions. Where Dostoevsky and Gogol wrote about psychologically deranged characters from the perspective of a sane narrator who describes in lucid and sane prose the insane mental processes of this or that character, Kafka get rids of the sane and lucid narrative in favor of one that is itself disordered and delusional -- Das Urteil (The Judgment) is an excellent example of this kind of narrative.
So, there are all sorts of ways that you can play with the traditional 'weird tale' formula to create something that is imitative without being mere pastiche.
Anyways, it's bedtime so I'll stop here. I'll write a bit more tomorrow when I get a chance. I hope that you don't find what I've written here discouraging or leaves you with an 'Oh-God-I-can't-do-this' feeling. (If I thought that you simply don't have the talent to do it, I would have passed your writing over in silence without wasting time writing long posts to no purpose).
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:50 am
Saigyo
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
'kay, so to continue: Yesterday, I talked in a pretty general manner, using major literary figures as examples, about possible ways of playing with the literary formulas that writers inherit from their predecessors. Today, I'm going to look at the undeveloped elements in your story which you can exploit to make a fresher, more powerful, narrative.
First, let's look at the Lovecraftian formula: the Lovecraftian hero transgresses the boundaries of the human by pursuing forbidden knowledge. In the Lovecraftian story, the knowledge pursued and the transgression is always arcane and metaphysical in nature. But there are many other kinds of forbidden knowledge that we mortals pursue either in dream or in reality which provoke horror in us. In Lovecraft, knowledge is always either mystical or intellectual in character. But intellectual and mystical forms of knowing are really quite rarefied and derivative. The most primordial knowledge is tactile, physical, and sensual. Babies are completely devoid of intellection and yet they accumulate massive amounts of knowledge about themselves and the world through bodily sensation and it's this massive heap of accumulated physical knowledge that provides the necessary foundation for the leap into intellection. And what follows is obvious: sex is, for adults, a return to the most primordial mode of human knowing. That sex and knowledge are the same thing is a strange proposition, yet easily proven simply by looking at the meaning of the verb "to know": to know is to grasp something cognitively or it is to have sex. In the King James Bible, in the majority of its instances, to know carries the sexual rather than cognitive sense.
So what does this have to do with your story? What I find most interesting and original about your story is what is most undeveloped and barely even hinted at in it. Your transgeressive hero, instead of pursuing forbidden metaphysical knowledge is pursuing his sister. The sister is where forbidden knowledge should be. When I look beyond the surface of your story and peer into its deepest depths what I find is a story about the pursuit and horror of pursuing forbidden knowledge -- in the King James sense -- of the sister. In the story your writing you're combining the cosmic horror of Lovecraft with an incest horror that is uniquely your own and which constitutes the phantasmal core of your story.
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:15 pm
Reanimator
Miskatonic University
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
You've astounded me once again Saigyo with how directly you can disassemble things into their base truths.
When you said there was something rather generic about it, that was exactly the reason I've deleted so much. It just felt flat to me but I was finding it difficult to place why I thought that way. I could tell that the story was becoming a parody but I wouldn't have been able to indentify what I could have done to distinguish it from being so. The theme you've made me aware of makes so much sense to me now too. It hardly comes as a surprise now that you've said it, except for the fact that you noticed it there. I even mentioned the estranged mother and it fits perfectly why that would be the case, if their arguement centred around his sister.
There was another concern I had which doesn't really relate to what I've recently shown you but further back. I was thinking about how you said the change of perspective was jagged and there's another aspect to that which I've sort've ignored and I'm not sure if I should go over the text and correct it (Or rather, finish the piece and correct it afterwards). When I changed to Arthur's perspective the first time, I also changed the tense and since returning to Edward I didn't change back. I didn't mean to do it at all really but I did very deliberately choose the present tense when I started writing because I thought it might help create suspense if there was the feeling that events were unfolding at that very moment; rather than they had occured already with the past tense. Lovecraft was very adept at avoiding the feeling that everything would be okay by the end, even though he generally wrote in first person narratives; Yet, I wanted to avoid that altogether, initially. Do you think one would be better than the other?
Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:38 pm
Saigyo
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
Well, to answer your question, Reanimator, since you're writing in a completely Victorian prose style, in which the vivid historical present isn't used, it's best to stick to the past tense exclusively.
As for the question of word count, I wouldn't really worry about it at this point. What you're writing right now isn't likely to bear much resemblance to your finished product, since you're still in the process of putting together the basic elements of the plot. If I were you, I'd be content to just keep writing without consideration of length: at the final stage of the story's development we can look at ways of compressing the narrative should word count be an issue then.
So over the last couple of days I've been commenting on and hopefully have been helping you fix first major problem in the story, namely its generic and overly-imitative quality. Thusfar I've restricted restricted my focus to the problem as it exists at the level of plot only. Today, I want to look at the problem at the level of language and style.
At the level of language and of style your problem is one of an excess of virtuosity. You're simply too good at replicating Lovecraft's style, with its marvellously moody gibbous-waxing moons and ebon monoliths towering over bottomless precipices to the hideous depths of blackest Tartarus. Unfortunately, the way the story reads now, the language has a bit of a hackneyed and used-up quality. Its has the same sort of sad quality that haunts pieces of second-hand clothing. I imagine that you've also noticed this at least subconsciously and that it's another one of your major sources of dissatisfaction in the work that you're producing.
I'll continue in another post in a few minutes.
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:41 pm
Saigyo
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Re: Getting to the end of something.
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that you often use short Victorian catch-phrases in places where there should be elaborate and atmospheric environmental description. A good example is the 'ebon monolith'. Although it does have a certain creepy atmospheric quality to it, it's a cliche. The monolith has to be something other than 'ebon' and somewhere it has to be described in much greater detail. A merely 'ebon' monolith is too tame, too lame. In the kind of story you're writing, the level of environmental description is positively baroque because atmosphere is an essential component of a successful story. Where you have a simple 'ebon' monolith, I'd have a long and luish description of a dark behemoth clawing at the stars covered in revoltingly-shaped hieroglyphics along with depictions of hideous and obscene rites -- the which I'd describe in great detail -- which would foreshadow for the reader the unhappy fate(s) of the principal character(s). Where you have a single adjective I would have two dozen sentences. Consequently, the story as it stands has an impoverished quality.
So as you write, think about the adjectives that are coming to you. You definitely want to use the stock adjectives, since they have an essential part to play in creating the creepy atmosphere, but use them along with other less conventional, more unexpected adjectives that will help to give the story a less hackneyed quality. Certainly, do make the moonlight gibbous, but make it something else as well, for example.
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:33 pm
Reanimator
Miskatonic University
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Mood: Giggly
Re: Getting to the end of something.
Yes, I agree. I think since the change of location I haven't even done the merest lip service to description that I should have done.
Actually I changed the description I used for the tower there at the last moment from, 'doom tide obelisk,' because I thought due to barely mentioning the tower previously, except in sparsity, the reader wouldn't follow what it was I was referring to. I wanted to root the supernatural in the tower and thus far I've completely failed at that. Although it would be so easy to make it the focus of Demdike's attention and give the impression of its significance through her reverance towards it. And, of course, as you mention, a stricter adherence to realising it as the centre of foulness by lengthy descriptions and as much the rest of the scene which has largely gone unnoticed too.
I try to remind myself that atmosphere isn't just what you see, it's what you smell and hear and feel too; but I think again I've been negligent and I could do better.
I'm keenly aware of how standard my descriptions have been and you're right that has been a large source of discontent with me. I know the most effective adjectives you can use are the ones which are surprising in the unexpectedness of their context and yet still do the service of painting imagery. I'm exceedingly glad you mentioned it though because it reinforces the importance of it to me and I know I shan't let it fall to the wayside now.
Thanks for all your input Saigyo, it truly does open my eyes.
Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:00 pm
Saigyo
西行
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:57 am Posts: 921 Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Sex: Male
Mood: Melancholy
Re: Getting to the end of something.
I know that when I want to get a feel for a certain kind of description or other narrative element, I find it really helpful to study the ways other writers have done it. I thought you might find it helpful, too, Reanimator, so I'm going to post a few relatively short descriptive passages from pieces of fantastical literature. Since in your story the task is the description of a monolith, I'll restrict the descriptions chosen to that of monolith-like structures.
First, let's look at an example from a Conan story by Robert E. Howard, who was one of Lovecraft's favorite writers. The first thing to take note of in the description is the absence of anything horrifying or creepy about the tower being described. The reason for this is that the piece being written is in the sword and sorcery genre, whose poetics are different from that of horror. In the sword and sorcery genre, the sought-after atmosphere is one of a fully-constituted world that is exotic, with a preference for the quasi-Oriental, barbarous, and reminiscent of ancient heroic societies.
Conan is about to arrive at the mysterious Tower of the Elephant, which he's been told is the abode of the wicked magician-priest Yara who possesses the enchanted and priceless jewel called the Elephant's Heart:
His sandalled feet made no sound on the gleaming pave. No watchmen passed, for even the thieves of the Maul shunned the temples, where strange dooms had been known to fall on violators. Ahead of him he saw, looming against the sky, the Tower of the Elephant. He mused, wondering why it was so named. No one seemed to know. He had never seen an elephant, but he vaguely understood that it was a monstrous animal, with a tail in front as well as behind. This a wandering Shemite had told him, swearing that he had seen such beasts by the thousands in the country of the Hyrkanians; but all men knew what liars were the men of Shem. At any rate, there were no elephants in Zamora.
The shimmering shaft of the tower rose frostily in the stars. In the sunlight it shone so dazzlingly that few could bear its glare, and men said it was built of silver. It was round, a slim perfect cylinder, a hundred and fifty feet in height, and its rim glittered in the starlight with the great jewels which crusted it. The tower stood among the waving exotic trees of a garden raised high above the general level of the city. A high wall enclosed this garden, and outside the wall was a lower level, likewise enclosed by a wall. No lights shone forth; there seemed to be no windows in the tower--at least not above the level of the inner wall. Only the gems high above sparkled frostily in the starlight.
Shrubbery grew thick outside the lower, or outer wall. The Cimmerian crept close and stood beside the barrier, measuring it with his eyes. It was high, but he could leap and catch the coping with his fingers. Then it would be child's play to swing himself up and over, and he did not doubt that he could pass the inner wall in the same manner. But he hesitated at the thought of the strange perils which were said to await within. These people were strange and mysterious to him; they were not of his kind--not even of the same blood as the more westerly Brythunians, Nemedians, Kothians and Aquilonians, whose civilized mysteries had awed him in times past. The people of Zamora were very ancient, and, from what he had seen of them, very evil.
Although only a paragraph long, the description provides a reasonably vivid picture of the tower and also succeeds in evoking the exotic quality demanded by the poetics sword and sorcery genre..
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:49 pm
Reanimator
Miskatonic University
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 12:35 am Posts: 3281 Location: NW England
Country: United Kingdom
Sex: Male
Mood: Giggly
Re: Getting to the end of something.
I remember his description of elephants ever since reading his collected Conan works. I find it amazing he can take an iconic animal which everyone has a good image of and describe it from the view point of an alluded to myth, as understood by someone who has never seen one before. I loved how nimble he made Conan in that story too, like a big cat predator on the hunt.
That paragraph clearly demonstrates the level of description I should devote to scene setting. Where I've used one or two adjectives in a single sentence, Robert Howard dedicates a full paragraph and the difference is marked. I like how he opens by describing it rising frostily and closes too on the same description. It lends it that glistening quality of frost as it clings to the earth which makes you think of the light being reflected off the surface at differing angles and creating a sparkle.
Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:28 am
Reanimator
Miskatonic University
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 12:35 am Posts: 3281 Location: NW England
Country: United Kingdom
Sex: Male
Mood: Giggly
Quote:
Occupying the attention of all from upon its grassy plinth, towered the stone needle Blackhaw, piercing the ambient amber of the night sky with an imposing figure. The placid lunar host was no exception and also seemed to draw near it in shushed reverence and crowned its brow with an opulent halo. It reposed itself in silence as if paying remembrance to the long deceased interred beneath its burial mound and even the night owl would not raise its voice to disturb the soliloquy. All that was heard was the rush of the wind that worried the leaves of unseen trees and you might think that too could only be at the behest of that stoic monolith.
Do you think that sort of paragraph would work better? I sort of worry that I return to the same sort of images too often. The moon, the wind and leaves for example. Although I'm not certain I could be sure until I can read through it in its uninterrupted entirety.
Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:21 pm
Saigyo
西行
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:57 am Posts: 921 Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Sex: Male
Mood: Melancholy
Re: Getting to the end of something.
Yeah, that's precisely the kind of descriptive paragraph you need to get used to producing. Also, I'm glad you posted a shorter piece of text because it allows me to make some comments about language and rhythm sentence by sentence, an area I haven't had a chance to look at before.
As you write, you're going to make errors in idiomatic usage and find yourself writing sentences that are rhythmically fucked. This'll keep your story from having the well-chiselled and smooth quality that you're looking to achieve.
Let's look at your first sentence. It begins, "Occupying the attention of all from upon its grassy plinth..." Here the verb is weak and the expression is unidiomatic. Consequently, the prose has a clumsy quality. A colossal physical structure doesn't occupy someone's attention. It draws it, or it compels it. To occupy is to neutrally take up space. There's nothing neutral about the monolith. It's a big and really, really bad-ass motherfucker demonic structure that would much rather aggressively menace rather than just passively occupy. You need to change the verb in order to get rid of the clumsy flavor of the prose here.
The sentence continues with, "towered the stone needle Blackhaw...". Here the problem doesn't lie in the verb you've chosen, but in the weak place you've assigned it to in the overall economy of the sentence. What you want to emphasize and thereby make the reader more vividly experience imaginatively is the towering of the monolith, since this is dramatically more powerful than the mere name Blackhaw. Compare the two sentences below:
Occupying the attention of all from upon its grassy plinth, towered the stone needle Blackhaw.
Occupying the attention of all from upon its grassy plinth, the stone needle Blackhaw towered.
I'll continue in a bit in another post.
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:29 pm
Saigyo
西行
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:57 am Posts: 921 Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Sex: Male
Mood: Melancholy
Re: Getting to the end of something.
Now let's look at the structure of the first sentence as a whole. It begins with a qualifying phrase governed by a participle ('occupying'). Then follows the main clause (the stone needle Blackhaw towered). And then the sentence finishes with yet another qualifying phrase governed by a particple ('piercing'). Unfortunately, sandwiching a main clause between two participial clauses gives a sentence a flabby and unfocused quality. "Standing on the deck of the ship stood the pirate contemplating the island emerging into view in the offing." See what I mean?
Compare your original sentence with two revised sentences, in which one of the participial phrases is eliminated.
"Occupying the attention of all from upon its grassy plinth, towered the stone needle Blackhaw, piercing the ambient amber of the night sky with an imposing figure."
"Occupying the attention of all from upon its grassy plinth, the stone needle Blackhaw towered."
"The stone needle Blackhaw towered, piercing the ambient amber of the night sky with an imposing figure."
Both of the two revised sentences are structurally tighter than the sentence you wrote, with the first of the revised sentences being the stronger of the two.
_________________ Ich doch einmal ohne einen gewissen vorhandenen Zauber nicht leben kann. -- Robert Walser
Ideally, you should feel at home in the wasteland. -- Fallout 3 Game Manual
I can't go on. I will go on. -- Samuel Beckett
Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:36 pm
Reanimator
Miskatonic University
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 12:35 am Posts: 3281 Location: NW England
Country: United Kingdom
Sex: Male
Mood: Giggly
Re: Getting to the end of something.
It's plain to see how easily the impact of a sentence can change by simple alterations. You're definitely correct the first revision works best and leaves the strongest impression. I'm really regretting that verb now too after seeing the sentence repeated so many times.
I almost wish I could forget ever having thought of the sentence myself because I find it quite hard to step back and look at it objectively to correct errors like that. I almost require to not read the text for a few days and then come back to amend the languange missteps. Also, I know when I'm writing good prose and I haven't felt it lately. It's a feeling of excitement I get when I'm writing well and thats when I hit upon the best phrases. I've been distracted and I think I need to shut the world out and focus to get this draft finished so I can think about reworking and finessing it.
I have a feeling when I've wrote something clumsy that there is something awry with it but I tend to stonewall myself trying to think of whats giving me that idea and then I show you and you point it out and I wonder why I couldn't see it myself.
Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:16 pm
Reanimator
Miskatonic University
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 12:35 am Posts: 3281 Location: NW England
Country: United Kingdom
Sex: Male
Mood: Giggly
Re: Getting to the end of something.
Quote:
Like a dire tyrant it strangled the small voices and held the wanderings of the field mouse and the opportunist fox. Beneath its grim sentinel the folk of West Craven felt cruelly oppressed but if they did not revere it they held their tongues and spoke not unkindly of its overreaching walls. And amongst them rumour abounded and those that hearkened to it would shudder and avow to spurn its proximity lest the evil there be tempted. They need only look to the way it straddled the skyline and commanded all the other things underfoot. Those natural or unnatural, man, bird or beast; Each paid their respects to its deathly foreboding. Even the moon became but an opal in its crown and bestowed it a dazzling halo as beautiful as it was ominous. Besides the name Blackhaw it had been called other things and most oft was it named a seat of power and the repose of an ancient king whose judgements bore no comprehending.
I tried to make it seem like a less passive description as you suggested. I'm happier with how this paragraph sounds but I'm not entirely satisfied with how the first sentence runs into the second. It feels like quite an abrupt stop/start. I almost want to add 'and' and make it all one sentence but I think the first sentence is complex enough as it is. Perhaps there should be an intermediary sentence between the two. I also think it could use some explanation for the structure too. Things like, is it a ruin, or not? The colour of the stone, the aspect of its construction and so on. In your Conan example Robert Howard effortlessly includes those details, "It was round, a slim perfect cylinder, one hundred and fifty feet in height." I guess I shouldn't get too carried away with perfecting an example though when I should be thinking of weaving it into the threads of the narrative.
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